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Author Topic: Regulating AA S5xx guns  (Read 219 times)

Offline Pauly5

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Regulating AA S5xx guns
« on: June 02, 2018, 09:35:13 PM »
I know Mr Google can probably answer all of this, but wanted see if anyone here had put a reg into an AA S5xx or S4XX  range.
I'm planning to do this, and what I really want to know is the methods of adjustments to valve and hammer springs as opposed to fitting the reg. For example replacing springs with stiffer/softer springs, or cutting, or packing them to make stiffer. I don't have any access to lathes. Don't know where to buy springs.

So any advice welcome. First thread for a while too.

Thanks in advance.
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Offline Novagun

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2018, 09:30:08 AM »
Springs from Bunnings but they may not be suitable for what you want. Those PCPs are still from the darkside.

Brian Walker from Metal Springs and Services in Dunedin can make you any spring you want and they are quite affordable. Good quick service.

Offline Mintie

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2018, 10:18:25 AM »
Highly recommend a Huma, Huub makes great gear! Comes with full fitting instructions and a plenum to suit your cal.

https://www.huma-air.com/Air-Arms-S510-Tuning-Regulator
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Offline Pauly5

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2018, 11:29:42 PM »
Thanks for the heads up re springs.
I was still deciding on which reg. Both huma and lane come with extra gear and good instructions, where altaros don't require drilling of the tank. I just have to make sure the inside of the tank is smooth enough to seal for the ones that need drilling. I had drilled the lone star tank when I fitted the reg into it and no problem apart from my tank being an odd ball size that meant I needed to get thicker O rings.

For me now it's a bit of trial and error with how much tension to bed or subtract. I'm gonna blow a lot of pellets under trial.

Yes Nova, the dark side. Fortunately the light still glows strong in me. With every thud of a tightly coiled spring nudging my shoulder I continue still to shoot my trusty springers.
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Offline Pauly5

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2018, 03:38:34 AM »
Ok, so I see there are die springs, and compression springs. I am guessing compression springs are suitable for either hammer or valve application, and that die springs are probably to strong? Mintie, Wingman or anyone with a bit of engineering knowledge?
I'm not trying to overcomplicate things, but will learn on the way.

I will be in contact with the spring people after the weekend thanks Nova.
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Offline Wingman

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2018, 06:31:55 PM »
Hi Paul,

Ive fitted plenty of Huma regs to the AAs and they do well. Why in this day in age any gun makers still make  PCPs unregged and sell them for a premium though I dont know. I understand hot rodding older guns but these clowns are still selling unreged guns knowing the new owners are forking out more cash for an aftermarket unit.. its not like its new technology! Get with the times I say.

All that aside, to answer your question, there is no reason to change the hammer spring in the AAs should you chose to buy a Huma reg, the Huma reg was designed with the use of the std spring in mind. I have been quite involved with Huma air in the last few years with design work, R&D and testing and can tell you if its not supplied in the kit you order, you dont need it. (some kits come with new springs) depending on cal and energy you require these is a kit to suit your needs.
I am Huma's service agent here and carry all rebuild kits etc in stock. I am in communication with Huub most days and can sort any issues you may have with the product quickly.

Unfortunately the AA range of PCPs are largely dependant on power output adjustability a on a transfer port restrictor screw which is fine on a non regged gun but once regged it is best to run the TP wide open or even drilled to the max amount possible for the biggest air flow and shortest dwell time but not so big that it damages pellets on the way past.  Either way you will benefit from higher fill pressures and consistent shots.  The tuning process need not waste a lot of air and lead. I have a simple way that will have you up and running with just a few chrono test shots and then full string once you are happy.


« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 06:34:18 PM by Wingman »

Offline Pauly5

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2018, 07:45:23 PM »
Ok, you just earnt yourself some emails from me thanks Wingman.

So what I have is an FAC 177 carbine S510. I want it putting out around 12 ft lb. It will become my working gun for pigeons sparrows etc, so I'm after the most consistency I can get, and figure shot count will improve at that lower setting. I believe TP is 3.6 mm when open fully, so hopefully don't need to touch that, which leaves the springs.

On my first outing with this gun I got a nice bag of sparrows, but the drop in the power curve does my head in and I started missing. So i agree, why dont all modern guns come out with regs fitted as standard.
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Offline Pauly5

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2018, 06:08:20 AM »
Human reg on the way, some good advice received too. Just the wait for the postman now.
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Offline Mintie

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2018, 08:43:56 AM »
Human reg on the way, some good advice received too. Just the wait for the postman now.

Good result. Would be great to see a before and after full shot string.... :)
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Offline Pauly5

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2018, 07:20:41 PM »
I will with this one Mintie. I'm generally not so patient and just jump in and do it, but plan to make some notes and maybe graph the power, so I find the point that the reg and valve are at the most economic.
I have watched the Robert Lane videos now, even found myself falling asleep with dribble running down my chin 😴😴, and Wingman has given me good info, so I have an understanding of what I need to achieve.
I'm hoping the inside of the cylinder is smooth enough to get a good seal, or I will have to add cylinder honing to my skill set. I have a brake caliper honing tool on the watch list just in case.
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Offline Pauly5

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2018, 10:02:08 AM »
Huma reg arrived today, I also have a spare 12 ft/lb hammer spring and a spare hammer for modifying sitting there waiting to be tampered with. I have some tips from Wingman, but will have to decide on my own where to put the sticker.

I'm hoping the cylinder is smooth enough for the reg to seal in, but I do have a cylinder honing tool just in case. It's brand new and the pads are still square. Does anyone have tips on using it? Do you spin it quick or slow, keep it moving up and down the area and not let it spin in the same spot and maybe the best lubricant to use? Any tips welcolme.

So, this weekend I will hopefully shoot a string and get "before" data.

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Offline Pauly5

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2018, 07:58:31 PM »
My chrony is an old one, and last time I set it up took ages to get the light right. I got two of those led lamps from super cheap and they work perfectly.
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Offline Pauly5

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2018, 11:16:54 PM »
Well I had some time tonight. First I shot a string, since this gun has a power adjuster I set it at approx the power i'm after. This would be around 11 ft/pd. I filled to 200 bar and ended up shooting 40 shots that took me down 50 bar, with a steady decline in fps from 778 to 698 in those 40 shots. on average it dropped 2 fps per shot. I didn't fill any higher as I generally don't have much more pressure available unless I top up with the hand pump.
Next thing was to pull the gun apart, after de gassing. Once apart I measured where I need to drill the tank,  :o and where to cut the brass firing pot.
The inside of the tank was quite dirty and a bit too rough in my opinion for the reg to seal against, so once I drilled the hole I took to it with 800 grit. This got rid of any sharp edged from drilling, and it smoothed the area needed for sealing.
At this stage I was getting cold with the pending frost tonight, and thought I'd leave it till tomorrow, so I bagged up everything, left the garage and went into enjoy the fire.

The new hammer spring is softer, but the spare hammer I got will fit, but it's longer and feels heavier, so I don't think it will help me unfortunately, as I would say it's made for an FAC model. The picture shows the one one out of the gun closest, and new one at the back.
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Offline Pauly5

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2018, 10:35:23 PM »
Wow, yea, ok. Once I get through all the attention I have updates. Of course no one has ever installed a reg into an S510, so this will be fairly ground breaking.

So I fitted the reg, the new lighter hammer spring and the new hammer. I weighed the hammers and interestingly the longer, new one was 5 gm lighter. So i figured that the length would give me shorter lock time. After cutting the valve pot, I put it all back together again.
Now I had turned the reg down a tad to about 90 bar so I was interested to see the results. I filled up the tank to about 115 bar and was very pleased not to have any leaks. Then started shooting a string. High 829 fps, low 819 over 18 shots, then started dropping as it came of the reg, no spike. The gun sounds more economic when firing, with not such a blast of air on each shot. I'm pretty happy with it at this stage as I'm sure a 200bar fill will yield a greater count.
It's still running a bit faster than what I want, so I plan to pack out the valve spring a touch. My target is 750 fps with 8.4 grain  pellets. I have a washer that just about fits, but I will have to remove approx .4 mm off the diameter for it to fit into the pot under the spring.
The Hammer has a type of collet in it so it glides on the rail. Unfortunately I can't take them out of the old to put in the new, so even though the new hammer works ok, I'm sure it's just not as smooth or repeatable as it should be.
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Offline Wingman

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Re: Regulating AA S5xx guns
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2018, 11:44:22 AM »
Dont add tension to the valve spring, that spring is only there to keep the valve shut when the cylinder is totally empty, it wont do anything to your dwell time. The pressure in your plenum and the weight of your hammer and hammer spring is what controls your dwell time and in turn the velocity.
Just drop the reg pressure down to 80 bar and test again.. you can then fine tune your velocity on the reg by moving the set screw 2 bar at a time.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 11:48:30 AM by Wingman »