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Author Topic: precharged hunting pistols  (Read 282 times)

Offline Dvlnme

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precharged hunting pistols
« on: November 25, 2018, 09:40:19 AM »
what is considered to be a pcp hunting pistol???what is even considered to be a pcp pistol today???Facts
 are no airgun manufacturer actually makes a properly designed pcp hunting pistol,what they do make are
 a serries of very short carbines minus their buttstocks,bassiaclly cut down versions of certain rifles they
 make,these are in real terms just sawn off rifles,not actually proper handguns as they were never
 origionally designed as handguns,popular guns like the PROD and others simialler to it are marketed as
 pistol carbines,but that is not what these guns actually are,they are actually short carbines with detactable
 buttstocks,which dosnt make them a pistol,just fitting some form of pistol grip on this type of gun,dosnt
 make it a pistol,its still what it began as,a full size rifle reduced it.s minimum size without its buttstock.
 As these guns are made from full sized rifles that were never designed to cut down in this way,parts like
 breechs/mags etc were designed for rifles,not pistols so are overly large and bulky for a pistol,mags often
 protrude out top and side of breechs,making it allmost impossible to fit open sights,so need optical sights
 just to usable a pistol,putting the sights so high above the barrel they make the gun top heavy and very
 bulky etc,pistols by defination should be as compact /light weight and easy to use as possible,which none
 these type of guns are,What is the point in a gun to be used as a pistol that needs optical sights a steady
 rest just to hold it up so you can actual keep it steady enuf to even able to see thru the sights eh!!!
 I dont denie some may have a use for this type of short buttless carbine,but are they truely practical
 hunting pistols???In my expreience NO.
 Truth is they can only sell this crap as pistols simply because there is nothing else available and why
 would a manufacture whos in busseness to make money even bother to come up with anything better
 when they have a capitive market allready buying there crap guns any way.
 Dispite all the inovation,new technolgy developed for rifles in recent years,none of it has been applied to
 develope better pcp hunting pistols,they remain the most bassic even primitive form of pcp air and dont s
 started out at 20 years ago and dont seem likely to improve any time soon either.
 The only ones who seem to understand what a good pcp pistol should and can be are the Russians and
 we cant seem get the Russian guns here these days anyway.
 This is exactly why i started designing and eventually building my own pcp hunting pistols,there is
 absolutly no technical or practical reasons why properly designed and built pcp much better pcp hunting
 pistols cant be developed,if these manufacturers can design and build suppurb pcp target pistols they
 cant do the same for hunting pistols as well but choose not to.
 There is allso absolutly no justification for many pcp airguns to be as expensive as they are today,all are
 produced on hi speed cnc or injection moulding machines spitting out precission componants at hi speed
 and in large numbers,just like toasters,and for low production costs,these are like firearms produced for
 little actual costs in materials or labour,simply coz there is no money in making guns in small volumes,
 they have to be mass produced to make money,I know from buying many firearms and airguns from
 overseas suppliers what they can be sourced for and the freight and taxs involved what the costs can be
 I am not getting at dealers here,they have make a living too,but some sure know how to make one hell
 a good living,going on their prices,Ron not one those either,totally straight up guy and great to deal with
 cheers mike

Offline Novagun

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2018, 09:01:39 PM »
Of the pcp pistols I have seen the difference is that the pistol has a short barrel and lesser vleocity because of that and no butt stock. No licence required. Add a butt stock and you then have gun that is not designed to be held and fired in one hand. Not a pistol and therefore you need a licence. Same gun but with my handcrafted butt.
Now if I recall correctly a Ranchero is classed as a pistol but it has a forestock but no butt stock. Does the forestock mean that it is designed to be held and fired holding the pistol grip and the forestock. If so that is not a pistol. A pistol is a gun designed to be held and fired in one hand.
Real pistols such as the new pcp revolver does not have a forestock, a Glock does not have a forestock. And there are plenty of others. My Webley Typhoon has a pistol grip and a forestock but it is a springer and it a mini rifle and it can be because no licence required. You could never say it was small and handy.
The law is an ass, it just is and does not care.

Offline Pauly5

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2018, 09:04:18 PM »
When I take the action of a pcp out of its stock, I look at it and think what did I actually pay for?  While I have never used a lathe or mill, I can see how they are made and can't help but think that we pay too much for them.
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Offline Novagun

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2018, 09:12:55 PM »
Don't get me wound up. We live in a country where everything is grossly over priced because the importers can get away with it. Have a look at the prices Bunnings charge for fastenings and then go to Mohia St and buy them for half the price. Bunnings guarantee they will beat any other supplier by 15% for the identical product but have a look at their bolts. They are odd sizes and very often varnished. Not the same.
Same with other products, all advertising bunkum.

Offline Dvlnme

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2018, 09:41:01 AM »
I didnt post this to start a war of words between friends,or to argue the legal defination of a pistol,but to
 make comments on what others think qualifys as a good hunting pistol in a pcp.
 I am a pistol sort guy,with firearms and pcps having considerable experience with both,I have very fixed
 ideas on what a pistol is and should be,and that dosnt include putting certain popular guns like theP rod,
 Ranchiro and others that are quite simply short carbine versions of the parent rifle,minus their buttstock
 as proper pistols,they are in very real terms what used to be called a sawn off rifle,this was an expedient
 way for some one wanting usually for criminal means to get a concealable firearm,therefore such a firearm
 under the law as it stands is considered a pistol,as law stands this dosnt affect pcp airguns,so lets put that
 that one to rest and move onto the real topic,which the type of pcp airgun being marketed by the airgun
 industry on us as pistols,my point was these maybe short and handy guns for some uses,but are they
 properly and exclusivly designed as pistols,fact is they are not,what they are is an expediant way for
 manufacturers to use as many componants they allready make to produce another pcp product they
 can dump on the market as cheaply as possible,they know very well there is a growing market for pcp
 hunting pistols and they well sell this crap simply because thats all thats available.
 there is absolutly no reason why companys like FX CROSMAN and others cant develope proper pcp
 hunting pistols just as many do for target pistols,but choose not to for hunting pistols and why should
 they??coz they can sell all this other crap they can produce,Crosman markets the Prod as a pistol carbine
 but its carbine with a detactable buttstock which dosnt make it a pistol,it still has the carbine forend,full
 size rifle breech,mags set up for a scoped rifle/carbine etc needs optical sights just to be even usable,
 How exactly that morphs into a pistol beggers the imagination,the Ranchiro is no different in fact its even
 worse as its just the carbine minus its buttstock which dosnt make it a pistol either,Hatsan produces very
 simialler guns their new so called semi auto pistol is just cut down version of the rifle and is a bloody
 huge heavy ugly thing,many other are just the same.My question being where are the proper pcp hunting
 pistols????It seems to me that when it comes to pcp hunting pistols today,anything without a buttstock
 with some form of after thought type pistol grip added is accepted a being a hunting pistol,Hatsan even
 makes a full size rifle without buttstock and just a pistol grip fitted,this huge cannon is apparently a thing
 called a tactical pistol.whatever that is!!!!!Once again I ask where are the real pcp hunting pistols?????
 If anyone wonders why I have spent so much time and effort into developing my pcp revolver I would
 have thought be obvious,I simplily want a proper pcp hunting pistol,that is actually a proper pistol not
 a bloody sawn off rifle.
 cheers mike

Offline Pauly5

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2018, 11:53:22 PM »
So I can't comment on how you would build it, but I know what I like.
Wooden grips like on HW75, or even the gamo target pistol. I like the idea of barrel and tank incorporated, or covered so it doesn't catch on anything.  HW45 to me seems a good shape, but minimize the metal work a bit.
Sorry if that is all a bit simplistic. I would imagine you will carry it and want it to take the odd knock. That polygon barrel Wingman was playong with a while ago I liked. I have a zoraki .22, and I feel I can use it and not have to worry about knocking a floated barrel.
Thinking about it, I could definitely use a pistol for city pigeons. I have used the zoraki in the past, and if it didn't take so long for follow up shots I would use it more.
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Offline Dvlnme

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2018, 09:54:35 AM »
You definatly right bout the HW 45 Paul,its definatly on right track,tho still little large and bit under powered
 its a nice gun,you possibly noticed to that its not that different to my revolver,just uses a side lever
 breech and action,rather than a revolver type breech and action,i had considered doing someting very
 simialler before i got the revolver bug,The HW45 a really good concept for a hunting pistol,tho its based on
 on the rifle using same breech etc,its nice small compact breech and action very siutable for a pistol.they
 obviously really thought this one out well,just as Edgun did with the Verles pistol,not quiet as nice as the
Edgun pistol but still very nice pistol and its a repeater which allways gets my vote,the mag very simialler to
 mine exactly the right type mag for a pistol as it allows fitting good open sights unobstruted by mag as
 most seem to be.lot good things bout the HW 45 ,now if they can just make it little smaller and get fpe
 up to 30fpe i would buy on today.If crosman got serious bout the P rod,treated it for what really is a great
 little carbine,regulated tit up fpe tp 24fpe or more,fitted a good folding buttstock the P rod would be a
 commercial pest shooter dream carbine eh!!coz its never guna be a good pistol sawn off rifles never are.
 cheers mike

Offline Novagun

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2018, 10:15:23 AM »
Not starting a war of words. Just that the dictionary definitions interest me probably as much as the pistol itself and how precisely the definitions should be applied. That has never been tested as far as I know.
A couple of spring Webleys satisfies me for a plink.
Maybe the crux to the production of a pcp pistol is the cost of production.   
The other thing that goes through my mind is that if high powered pcp pistols become available through retail outlets then the gangs will get them, whatever the controls that may be applied. That could be part of the reason why new air pistols are now scarce. Gangs with high powered pcp pistols will not be a good development.
Whether or not they are prepared for the high pressure air recharging gear and procedures, who knows.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 10:19:19 AM by Novagun »

Offline Dvlnme

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2018, 06:12:59 PM »
This post was never bout the legal issuses,but now you brought it up Hugh,i have no issuses if all pcp guns
 are made A cat licenced required along with certain other very powerful springers now being imported
 due to pcp rifles now being on licence that are just as powerful as many pcp rifles,its plainly rediculous
 having two catagorys of pcp airguns,just as its with msa rifles,there should never have been A cat msa
 rifles as there are only cosmetic differences btween the two cats of msa rifles,they are still same rifle
 underneath both can use same hi cap mags which are freely available as are all the bits to change rifles
 appearence etc,My contention on msa rifles has allways been they should restricted just like handguns,
 if you want one,just like pistols get the approprate licence,but nz police totally lost the plot on that one
 right from the start,just as they did with pcp pistols,the origional 1980s firearms act been messed with badly too many times now allmost to the stages its getting unworkable for all partys,and they guna mess with it again very soon,and will stuff that up too,there will be no public submissions this time either as
 nz police convinced government to remove the need for public submissions some time ago,so the only
 advice the government will get will come from nz police,and how do you think thats guna work out eh!!
 cheers mike

Offline Pauly5

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2018, 08:06:43 PM »
Mike, here's the 44 and the 75 style. Of course easy for me to sit here and suggest when I wouldn't know where to start building one.

Good point re mag being set in action and open sights able to be used.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 08:10:51 PM by Pauly5 »
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Offline Dvlnme

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 08:52:26 AM »
I dont think most pcp pistols design concepts have been very well thought thru,but the HW 45 seems to
 have been designed by some one who actually had a brain,as its a pretty good design.Allways bugged me
 that most pcp pistols dont have any open sights,open sights very handy at times and in many cases are
 all thats needed,pistols generally being used at realitivly short distances.
 They went bit over board with pistol grip shape and design with the HW 45 tho,couldve made it bit smaller
 and less like a target pistol,and bumped fpe up a bit,still at low end as far as power goes for my liking,but
 other wise a nice pistol,very definatly a step in right direction in pcp pistol design.
 Tho i hadnt intended to bring legal issuses into this Hugh brought up some valid points that i have very
 strong opinions on due to experiences i have personally had,There is now unfortunatly a good case for
 some form control on airguns today due to the world today being a very different place to it was when
 our current gun laws were written,the public and our police today are very different to the 1980s,we are
 afflicted with with a world full of idiots,who have little consideration for others seem to be lacking in
 brains for some reason,and generally just dont seem give a shit for anyone but them selves,and its not
 going to get any better either.
 Tho am not getting at our police in general,but the havnt in so many cases to be as sqeaky clean as they
 would have us believe they are,Without a doubt our police should have an input into how laws are
 written along with every one else,but it is not the polices job to interprerate how these laws are applied
 like the rest of us they are obliged to obey those laws,some thing they seem today to regulaly forget
 and get away with because they largely control the legal system and how its administered,like many
 others today i have very faith in our police forces integrity,if our police are worried about the public
 losing faith in them to there job with honesty and impartcial intergity,they need seriously have a good
 look at themselves and how they operate as a force,I have many long term friends in our police force
 that I have the upmost respect for as people and police officers,the local officers around here have been
 awsume to Sharon and myself,We nothing but good things to say about all of them,unfortunatly there
 have been many others We cant say the same thing about,my comments havnt been about the many
 good officers we do have,but about the police managment and politics which is disfuntional on many
 levels at best,there are very definatly some in managment who have personal political agendas,these are
 the ones I intensly dislike,because they have no integrity and bring the good officers reputation into
 disrepute.
 Because of this and other issuses I dont see any thing possitive coming out of firearms law review,as
 these are the people that will being giving tainted and biased advice to government for their own ends.
 Thats my last word n this topic.
 cheers mike

Offline Pauly5

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 07:07:22 PM »
We still gonna talk about pistol design though aren't we? Please? Even a new thread.
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Offline Dvlnme

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2018, 08:33:37 AM »
Nah mate just want stay on topic,the other issuse not relavent to topic,but allways seems to rear its ugly
 head,but as law stands,pcp pistols are legal,and tho may end up as prob should have been in first instance
 on A cat lic it really dosnt matter coz either way there will be nothing we can do bout it eh!!
 Without a doubt pcps beening now on lic has had effect for some,but just like car,if want drive a car law
 requires you to have a lic ,cant see any difference myself same as if you want shoot pistols or E cat firearms
 get the bloody licence if you want own pcp airguns end of subject.
 I love my pcps,the only airguns that interest me,simplily because they the best for what I do with airguns
 they have to a significant degree allmost replaced my rimfire firearms today,allow me to hunt or pest
 shoot where I would never even considered using a firearm,so have increased my hunting possiblilitys
 expedentually.
 No other type of airgun can do what I need and want as pcp airguns can,I can legally hunt and effectivly
 hunt with handguns using pcp pistols,thats huge deal to me,coz I like my handguns and couldnt legally
 hunt with firearm handguns I owned,so you bet my pcp pistols a big deal to me.
 That being the case I want the very best pcp hunting pistols I can get my hands on,if that allso means I
 have to design and build them myself,I am perfectly fine with that as it means I end up with exactly the
 type of pistols I want and need eh!!Even if import ban wasnt in place I would still be building pcp pistols
 and rifles,just as I did with firearms in the past.
 I like building my own guns and have got pretty good at it with firearms,now want do same with pcp
 airguns,what is so wrong with that???
 I build guns coz I like doing so and coz I can.
 cheers mike

Offline Novagun

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2018, 09:36:32 AM »
Kapai.

Offline Dvlnme

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Re: precharged hunting pistols
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2018, 09:16:15 AM »
Further to my post on issuses I was having with co2 seals on my bulk fill cylanders expanding and blocking
 the fill valves,preventing them filling properly,finally tracked down the correct seals got them yeasterday
 problem now successfully resolved.
 The first seals used had come from a paintball suppier I had purchase the before with no issuses,apparently
 the supplier got shipment labelled incorrectly as were not aware of this till I contacted them,so good result
 all round.Shuk industrys came thru for me once again,they well used to me turning up and asking for dumb
 things when comes to seals for airguns,and have allways sorted them out for me successfully.
 Good to have a local company that can actually make all types seals and gaskets,they can even make head
 gaskets for vintage cars,amazing what these guys can make,just putting a plug in for awsume nz company
 who are willing to make seals for things you no longer get seals for at good prices as well.
 cheers mike