Username:

Password:

Author Topic: Importing airguns  (Read 9754 times)

Offline Davey

  • NZ Airgun
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 617
  • Mana 6
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2013, 08:31:47 AM »
Interesting. At the time of the law change a couple years ago, a friend went through all the palaver checking this out for a p-rod, the result at the time was that he didn't need a FAL to buy or keep it.
 
Several people on the old forum in fact had brought P-rods without a FAL now that I think about it... Seems kinda inconsistent. :-P
The spreadsheet guy.

Offline NZSteyr

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Location: Thames, NZ
  • Mana 0
  • Steyr LG 110
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2013, 03:58:57 PM »
Novagun, I believe you are incorrect on a number of points. You are almost correct in saying the following, although you have changed the wording slightly to what you believe the act to say, not what it actually says:

The definition of a pistol is a Firearm that is designed to be held and fired with one hand. It also includes any firearm less than 762 mms long.

I think you missed the mark a bit here:

As air pistols and firearms type pistols are included in the same act the firearms definition would be highly persuasive if not binding regarding air pistols...

...Because an air pistol is not specifically defined in the Arms Act...

Firearms ARE clearly defined in the Act:
"...means anything from which any shot, bullet, missile, or other projectile can be discharged by force of explosive;..."

Obviously this already definitely excludes any airgun or air pistol from any confusion with legislation specific to firearms.

Furthermore, Although a specific definition of air pistols is not made in the act, the interpretation gives clear guidelines:

"...airgun includes—
(a)any air rifle; and
(b)any air pistol; and
(c)any weapon from which, by the use of gas or compressed air (and not by force of explosive), any shot, bullet, missile, or other projectile can be discharged"

So clearly an air pistol is NOT a firearm pistol.

Finally, a pistol IS clearly defined in the act:
"pistol means any firearm that is designed or adapted to be held and fired with 1 hand; and includes any firearm that is less than 762 millimetres in length"

Since a pistol is defined in the act as a firearm and an air pistol is by definition NOT a firearm, they cannot be conflated in the same ruling. So I believe the conclusion you draw that...

Air pistol is not defined in either the Arms Act or the two dictionaries. The best definition we have is the definition of pistol in the Arms Act.

...is almost certainly incorrect. The law is very specific and an exclusive definition is unambiguous.


It is however an arguable point, the crux of which seems to be 762mms in length.

Note that in law, the word "means" gives an explicit definition that is unambiguous, but the word "includes" is not a definition, but is merely a suggestion.

Thus it is explicit that a pistol is a firearm, and that it is "designed or adapted to be held and fired with 1 hand" but it's definitely NOT explicit that any firearm under 762mm in length is a pistol.


What is and is not a pistol seems to have been settled by the Police...  and any challenge to their position could prove to be mightily inconvenient not to mention expensive.

True dat...

Offline Akzle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 478
  • Location: Whangarei. ish.
  • Mana 17
  • professional
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2013, 05:31:20 PM »
Note that in law, the word "means" gives an explicit definition that is unambiguous, but the word "includes" is not a definition, but is merely a suggestion.

not quite.
Check out the legal precept
"the inclusion of one is the exclusion of ALL OTHERS"

the word "include" in legalese, exclusively (unambiguously) limits the definition to the words following it.

Legislation is crap, designed to confuse and remove rights by deception, and make lawyers, judges, jews and politicians rich.
Fun game.

Offline NZSteyr

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Location: Thames, NZ
  • Mana 0
  • Steyr LG 110
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2013, 07:03:50 PM »
Check out the legal precept
"the inclusion of one is the exclusion of ALL OTHERS"...


I think you mean Legal Maxim:
"Inclusio unius est exclusio alterius" - The inclusion of one is the exclusion of another.

the word "include" in legalese, exclusively (unambiguously) limits the definition to the words following it.


It's a contentious point and not worth arguing here. If you're interested, this would give you some perspective http://www.adamsdrafting.com/including-without-limitation/

Either way my point is made...

if "includes" is exclusive then clearly the definition of a pistol "..; and includes any firearm that is less than 762 millimetres in length" definitely excludes airguns which are by definition not firearms.

Legislation is crap, designed to confuse and remove rights by deception, and make lawyers, judges, jews and politicians rich.


Amen to that!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 07:06:59 PM by NZSteyr »

Offline Akzle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 478
  • Location: Whangarei. ish.
  • Mana 17
  • professional
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2013, 08:22:41 PM »
I think you mean Legal Maxim:

It's a contentious point and not worth arguing here.

Either way my point is made...

if "includes" is exclusive then clearly the definition of a pistol "..; and includes any firearm that is less than 762 millimetres in length" definitely excludes airguns which are by definition not firearms.
i wasnt arguing the conclusion, just correcting what i believe to be untruth.

pre·cept - /ˈprēˌsept/ Noun: 1. A general rule intended to
regulate behavior or thought
2. A writ or warrant

max·im - /ˈmaksim/ Noun: 1. A short statement expressing a general truth or rule of conduct

semantics.
Legally, legislation is written under the principle, case law at the crown kangaroo courts has misinterpreted (as a matter of profit) it, saying that it has a more general (as used in common speech) meaning.

I dissected the new act, back when it was a bill, cbf repeating it.

Restrictions are against "any air pistol that looks like a firearm, without the requirement of looking like any specific firearm" (words to the effect).
Given the ignorance of the sheeple, phoning the cops with "hes got a gun", i expect painting a banana black could be just as effective for your next bank robbery.
But doesnt bode well if you want a short gun.

Offline Baikal

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Mana 0
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2018, 01:02:54 PM »
I applied for an import license for an air pistol but have been refused by the police because "Target Shooting Plinking" does not constitute a special reason ...pursuant to Arms Act 1983 Section 16(1)(a).

Would anyone know what might be a reasonable Special Reason?

Online Mintie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1315
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Auckland/Hawkes Bay
  • Mana 30
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2018, 02:30:18 PM »
Ask them for a more comprehensive reason why it was declined or ask under the OIA what reasons would be good enough for its approval.
Lots of airguns

Offline Dvlnme

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • Mana 4
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2018, 06:10:55 AM »
Time to stir bit of shit i think,The whole point of the law pertaining to pistols is entirely all about defining
 what constitutes a leathal weapon and a concealable weapon,and nothing else,as regards to firearms,so
 what legally defines a weapon,i dont know the specific answer to that,but would guess a weapon would
 clearly be,any thing that can potentually cause serious injury or death,under the law as i believe its
 intention is,any firearm that can be held and fired by one hand and is under 762mm in length is then
 considered to be as law stands a pistol if it is a firearm.A sub clause now includes soft air and co2 replica
 airguns specifically in same catagory as firearms,dispite the fact they are clearly not weapons or firearms,
 yet dosnt mention blank firing replica guns,which are thus obviously then exempt for this law,and freely
 available to anyone.The whole bassis of including airguns in with firearms is entirely based on how they
 look and nothing else,yet blank firing guns allso look exactly like the firearms they are replicas of, its my
 contention this law is based entirely on a deliberate lie perpetuated by nz police for their own unknown
 reasons seem to believe their own propaganda that our little country is  awash with large numbers of
 modern glock pistols and MP5 submachine guns etc,when real truth is the exact opposite and they know
 it,i doubt very much there are more than few such guns in nz,most the glocks,66 i believe at last count
 and a very significant number of 38/357 revolvers floating around out there actually came from this
 large number of these guns our police seem to have how misplaced over the years,none or very few have
 ever resurfaced again eh!!they have proberly lost other types of guns to but never admitted to doing so.
 This means the only supply of modern handguns floating around unaccounted for came from our police.
 Are our police so worried about ending up looking down wrong end of their own misplaced guns,they are
 trying so hard to remove anything that looks like their misplaced guns from the picture,makes you
 wonder if this is the real reason they have included soft air and co2 replicas in catagory as firearms now
 eh!!
 My point is there is no point in arguing this amongst our selves coz decission been made and law changed
 to protect the guilty,who happen to be our own police force.
 Is this behind the police policy now to shoot anyone waving around anything that remotely looks like
 firearm????Just in case its one they misplaced,makes one wonder eh!!
 Truth is nothing the public says or thinks is going to change any thing as its now law and gun laws never
 get changed to suit anyone but governments or police departments.
 cheers mike

Offline Novagun

  • NZ Airgun
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 851
  • Mana -1
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2018, 09:06:44 AM »
I would like to know what the lie is that the Police are perpetrating. I don't agree with how they have gone about the form of airgun control they have implemented and they could have done it better as far as I can see.
I don't see them lying but maybe they are acting unilaterally. But they do not make the law. Changes to the law will be made by parliament with recommendation from the Police. I do not see how it can be made differently. Whether we like it or not and despite the flaws and discontent it is the best system we have at present.

Just remember the Aussies banned and collected all MSSA rifles without compensation.

Times have changed and manufacturers have taken advantage by producing things that sell.
You will recall in the days of our youth that cap guns and water pistols were available but not in many different styles. They looked like or some of them looked pretty much like real pistols but you could tell the difference  because of colour or something that said out loud that it was a toy.

Now there are available handguns and rifle styles whether they be airguns or airsoft or plain replicas that look exactly like real serious powder burning guns. Look at the Gamo BB guns plus any number of others.

The law made a special category for replica firearms because these lifelike lookalikes were or could be used for armed hold ups.

Police need to protect their own not only from the bullet of the bady. And when people who can shoot clash it is the one who gets the bullet away first that wins. The Police need to protect the ordinary constable with wife and child who is contronted by an armed villain and the constable shoots first and kills a youth who is holding a plastic lookalike. Put yourself in the constables position and how he or she feels for the rest of the life.
Every day of that life.

It goes further than that, much further, when it comes to the justifiable use of force to protect and prevent further harm. That is a ham fisted way of talking about it but it is spelt out in the Crimes Act.

I was on a farm not too long ago and there in the arms cabinet was a Tika .308 semi automatic. Five shot mag or maybe seven. Also sitting in the safe was a plastic mag loaded with 30 rounds.  What for!!!.

I have no objection to licencing of firearms or collectors or museum curators licences.
I even favour airgun licencing and that could be done as a self licencing regime that does not require great expense and wobbly  administration such as the firearms licencing system.

Enough waffle. We just have to hope that the law makers helped by the Police get changes to the Arms Act right. That doesn't mean that we will like it.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 12:53:06 PM by Novagun »

Offline Dvlnme

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • Mana 4
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2018, 08:53:34 AM »
I fully understand where you are coming from Hugh,dont get me wrong I am not against our police,quiet
 the opposite,but dont wear rose colured glasses either when it comes to our police,after 50 years in
 dealing with our police as a firearms owner and user,dealer,collector,pistol shooter and commercial ammo
 maker,my experieces in dealing with them are very different to yours,I have allways been on the other side
 of the desk to where you sat,generally my experences have been possitive, but allways so,there has been a
 significant slow change in polices attitude to guns,gun owners in general over the past 25 years that has
 become very one eyed,its becoming to be their way or no way,the attitute to airguns has done a complete
 360 degree turn in that our police now consider even toy airguns to be dangerous weaponsand have used
 the media to push that idea as well,its now become possible for idiots to use toy soft airguns as weapons
 simplily because police gave very successfully convinced many of public they are dangerous weapons,so
 giving many in public there are a great many of real guns of this type out there in wrong hands,making
 it appear that our country is awash with illegal handguns,when that is not the real truth of the matter.
 The odds of some teenage wana be gangster actually having a real handgun when robbing the local dairy
 is 99.9% the opposite and police know this very well too.But what this has done is to give these idiots the
 means to commit this sort crime with toy guns simplily because the publice believed the police.
 The blame for this type of crime now being possible lays entirely on our own police giving these idiots the
 means to doso,This attitude is behind any airgun that lookes remotely like any type of firearm now being
 included in our firearms laws but the difinition of what this constitutes beening left deliberatly vage.
 You and I never going to agree on any this Hugh,and thats ok,we dont need get in a bun fight over it,just
 agree to disagree and stay on friendly terms.I am a realist,I know we never going to change any thing
 arguing about it with government or amongst our selves eh!! so now point in doing so,We have to live
 within whatever laws they come up with,lets just hope they keep them reasonbly sane eh!!
 We got lot better than the poor Aussies thats for sure,but have been told by friend qiute hi up in nz police
 that there are some in nz police pushing for the same rules here as in  Aussie,lets hope that dosnt
 happen eh!!but it is on the table with our police.
 cheers mike

Offline Akzle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 478
  • Location: Whangarei. ish.
  • Mana 17
  • professional
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2018, 10:40:25 AM »
...pursuant to Arms Act 1983 Section 16(1)(a).

Quote from: Arms Act 1983
16
(1)
Offence to import firearms or parts of firearms without
permit

No person shall bring or cause to be brought or sent into New
Zealand—
(a) any firearm, pistol, military style semi-automatic
firearm, starting pistol, or restricted weapon;
...
otherwise than pursuant to a permit issued to that person by a
member of the Police.

What should actually be looked to is §18, vis:
Quote
Any member of the Police to whom application is made for
the issue of a permit for the purposes of section 16(1)—
...
(a) may require the applicant to produce for examination
and testing such samples of any firearms, pistols, mili-
tary style semi-automatic firearms, starting pistols, or
restricted weapons
of any kind referred to in the appli-
cation as the member of the Police may consider neces-
sary; and
(b) may, in the discretion of that member of the Police,
refuse to grant the permit with respect to—

(i)
 any firearm, pistol, military style semi-automatic
firearm, starting pistol, or restricted weapon of
any kind; or
(ii) any parts of a firearm, pistol, military style semi-
automatic firearm, starting pistol, or restricted
weapon of any kind.
Without limiting the discretion conferred by subsection (1)(b),
no application for a permit for the purposes of section 16(1) in
respect of—
(a) a pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or re-
stricted weapon; or
(b) parts of a pistol, military style semi-automatic firearm,
or restricted weapon,—
shall be granted otherwise than by the Commissioner who
shall first be satisfied that there are special reasons why the pis-
tol, military style semi-automatic firearm, or restricted weapon
or parts to which the application relates should be allowed into
New Zealand.

It would seem they're using the "restricted weapon" as a catchall.
They don't need to tell you what is "special" only that they don't think you are.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 10:42:11 AM by Akzle »

Offline Akzle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 478
  • Location: Whangarei. ish.
  • Mana 17
  • professional
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2018, 10:57:41 AM »
...would guess a weapon would
 clearly be,any thing that can potentually cause serious injury or death,under the law as i believe its
 intention is,any firearm that can be held and fired by one hand and is under 762mm in length is then
 considered to be as law stands a pistol if it is a firearm.A sub clause now includes soft air and co2 replica
 airguns specifically in same catagory as firearms,dispite the fact they are clearly not weapons or firearms,
:
Quote from: Arms Military Style Semiautomatic Firearms and Import Controls Amendment Act 2012
“restricted airgun means an airgun that,—
“(a) without any of the attachments with which it is cus-
tomarily used, has the appearance of being a pistol, a
restricted weapon, or a military style semi-automatic
firearm; or

because they look scary. and the police are the only ones allowed to do that.
notice how often this picture is in your face now? the tv, papers, your local streets...


...
...

etc.


Quote

 Truth is nothing the public says or thinks is going to change any thing as its now law and gun laws never
 get changed to suit anyone but governments or police departments.
 cheers mike
oh you cynic!

The Govt ©™ exist to enshrine the will of the people as law, they're public servants and have our collective best interests at heart!

(/sarcasm)

Vive la revolution
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 12:14:33 PM by Akzle »

Offline Akzle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 478
  • Location: Whangarei. ish.
  • Mana 17
  • professional
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2018, 12:08:48 PM »
I would like to know what the lie is that the Police are perpetrating. I don't agree with how they have gone about the form of airgun control they have implemented and they could have done it better as far as I can see.
I don't see them lying but maybe they are acting unilaterally. But they do not make the law. Changes to the law will be made by parliament with recommendation from the Police. I do not see how it can be made differently.


the problems here are several. the police, once mere policy enforcers and civil servants, are now tasked also with traffic enforcement, and for some unknown reason firearm vetting/licensing.

An independent body should probably be set up, if they insist on continuing the licensing farce. Consult the police, sure, criminal background check etc, but they really don't have the expertise or interest (or budget) to deal with gun-stuff too.
And they should have never shitcanned the MOT.

Quote
Whether we like it or not and despite the flaws and discontent it is the best system we have at present.
apathy wins the day. people keep voting, which encourages these pondscum/ politicians.
I like to think that as a species, people will evolve past the bullshit/ disease known as "society". I wont be holding my breath.

Quote
Just remember the Aussies banned and collected all MSSA rifles without compensation.
so? what is your point in bringing this up?
just remember in the states you can buy pistols at 18, but can't drink until you're 21...

Quote
The law made a special category for replica firearms because these lifelike lookalikes were or could be used for armed hold ups.
of which there were... how many? fuckall? half of fuckall? it was a pre-ordained "solution" looking for a problem (or just an excuse they can sell to the ignorant public)

 and it doesn't address the hundreds of thousands that are already in the country which can be legally possessed by anyone over the age of 18.

the guns aren't the problem. guns are safe as shit. it's fuckwits that are the problem, but no-one's had the balls to make being a fuckwit illegal.

Quote
Police need to protect their own not only from the bullet of the bady. And when people who can shoot clash it is the one who gets the bullet away first that wins.
no it isn't.
you need to read up on armed engagements/ encounters. (start with "police marksmanship under fire") The average number of shots fired at close range, per participant, is 4. Whoever scores the first  hit usually wins.

And NZ police are a particular kind of shit at shooting, and unable to even account for where all the bullets they fired go!.
15 rounds i think it was, when they shot that brown guy on the auckland motorway. only 1 hit him (the innocent bystander, that is, not the offender), the rest went.... somewhere.

3 or 400 with that guy holed up in napier (they HAD been authorised to use supressive fire. still. fucken ridiculous) and they didn't even manage to shoot him in the end!
(and the "independent" police conduct authority never investigated)

Quote
The Police need to protect the ordinary constable with wife and child who is contronted by an armed villain and the constable shoots first and kills a youth who is holding a plastic lookalike. Put yourself in the constables position and how he or she feels for the rest of the life.
Every day of that life.
compared the number of lives the police fuck up, on a semi-regular basis?

The police are hugely underfunded and way to undertrained to be carrying guns.
If you're using a firearm, or imitation one, in the commission of a crime, you're fair game to be shot, i would not hold that against anyone, police or not.
BUT I remember days of guys out of the bush, cashing their fur or tails cheque or whatever, in THE BANK with a rifle slung on their shoulder. Now days? you'd shut down a city block if you get a long pointy bag out of your vehicle. attitudes are getting stupider. and the police are getting civvies used to seeing armed officers.


Quote
I was on a farm not too long ago and there in the arms cabinet was a Tika .308 semi automatic. Five shot mag or maybe seven. Also sitting in the safe was a plastic mag loaded with 30 rounds.  What for!!!.
new mags often need their springs softened by leaving them loaded.
:P
I sure hope he had an E cat license and the associated security requirements met. Sounds like he didn't have his ammunition stored seperately, safely and away from opportunist theives (i mean, who REALLY knows what nova gets up to after dark... :o )

Quote
I have no objection to licencing of firearms or collectors or museum curators licences.
I even favour airgun licencing and that could be done as a self licencing regime that does not require great expense and wobbly  administration such as the firearms licencing system.

Enough waffle. We just have to hope that the law makers helped by the Police get changes to the Arms Act right. That doesn't mean that we will like it.


i don't. licensing has been shown to be exactly 0% effective against a) unlicensed people doing things or b) licensed people doing illegal things.
The police have an agenda, and it sure isn't "more guns for everyone".

Offline Dvlnme

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 361
  • Mana 4
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2018, 10:24:41 AM »
I tend be on same page as Akzle on this subject and for same reasons.gun laws like all laws only target
 those they know will comply with them,idiots and criminals by definition are not going to comply with any
 law that dosnt suit them,yet are the very ones we are told these laws are put in place to control,but end
 result is these laws put controls on every one else for no valid or effective reasons that have absolutly
 no effect on the idiots and criminals we are told are the real targets of these laws,most laws are about
 gathering revenue by means of taxs on those who cant avoid paying these taxs as the wealthy seem
 able to,the rest are all about politics and social engineering designed to control us peasants and stop us
 revolting against the weathy elete who hold power over us peasants and will do anything to hold that
 power over the masses,if anyone believes its any different i suggest they read up on history,its allways
 been this way. There is no such thing as a true democratic polititcal system,where all are equal,never has
 been and never will be either,the only real difference between feudalism and modern democrocy is the
 illusion the masses actually have a real say in how the system works,when that has never been the truth.
 The real truth the wealthy allways hold power and have no intention of letting go that power either,to
 believe otherwise is to delude your self.
 cheers mike

Offline Pauly5

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1871
  • Location: Porirua
  • Mana 28
  • Go ahead, make my day!
    • View Profile
Re: Importing airguns
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2018, 05:11:11 PM »
Looking at the photo, is it common practice to match left and right handed police?
 ::) ::) :-X
HW98
HW97k
Tx200
S510
HFT500
Bobcat
Matador R2.5
HW40 (copy)
Daisy 953
P-Rod
1377
Zoraki 22