Author Topic: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup  (Read 97074 times)

Offline Wingman

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Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« on: January 24, 2014, 01:11:51 AM »
There has been much talk of a Bullpup some say an EDgun clone from China yet no one has actually handled one or in fact seen one other than a few photo-shopped factory images on the interweb..

                                             Until now that is..

I have just taken delivery of the two very first production prototypes for testing and review purposes, one in .177 and one in .22 and for the curious minds out there Im going to completely tare these down and compare them to their European counterparts for you all and answer every question you and the manufacturer want answered..
At this stage this rifle is not available but to the public but once the manufacturer gets the required feedback on their new product and make any modifications needed they will hit production and be distributed to their representatives around the globe. You cant buy these directly from the factory unless you are a representative as they don’t deal directly with the public and they have a minimum purchase number of 100 units. Please don’t ask me what these will retail for as it will depend entirely on your location and local distributors costs and mark ups. However I can tell you it will be cheaper (much cheaper) than any other bullpup currently available on today’s market.

Will this new low priced Bullpup compete with the European bullpup market needing very few mods right out of the box?
….or will it always be an entry level rough around the edge rifle with the quality resembling a the QB series of rifle etc that the tinkerers on a budget among us will flock to and replace every part on the rifle until it no longer resembles its original form and end up with something they can never recover their cost on when they eventually get pissed off  with it and sell to buy the European Gun they wished they had bough in the first place..

Here is the Factory info on this pup before I get into this..
They are made by the Snow Peak Airgun factory in Shaoxing China who are well know for making cheap springer’s, some owners have remarked that they have been of reasonable quality but I have never owned or inspected one so I will not comment.

Snow peak Airgun factory was established in 1976 and at present, the company has 10 series with more than 30 specifications of airgun products, and owns several patents. The company also cooperates with internationally well-known airgun brands, and is rich in mature OEM experiences with a strong design and R&D team, they boast a first-class quality control system and testing equipments.
PCP Rifles are a new venture for Snow peak and they are gearing up to produce two PCP rifles, the M10 which looks to be a Air Arms S400 clone and this one the P12 bullpup which will be the subject of this independent review.

This is the manufacturers specs for the P12 bullpup they have released on their website.

MODEL P12 Bullpup
Magazine capacity: Single shot
Manual safety
Available in .177 (4.5 mm), .22 (5.5 mm) calibres.
Air tube volume: 317cc
Fill pressure: 20mPA, 200 Bar, 2900Psi
Precision rifled steel barrel for accuracy.
Scope mount rail & shock absorber scope stop.
Stock: European hard wood
Over all length: 710mm (28”)
Weight 3.1kg (6.8lbs)
Max velocity: 4.5mm (.177cal) 1000fps
                    5.5mm (.22cal)  1000fps

Please note this will be an evolving thread with an extensive unbiased review that tests every component of these PSP’s professionally and thoroughly.
I will first test and provide data on the rifles exactly as they arrived from the factory floor and then (should I need to) I will provide a list of all defects, point out any “quirks” and improvements needed to bring them up to an international standard.

Once all testing and data collection is done going onto a section of “extensive modification and tuning” in an attempt to get this Bullpup to be “all it can be”
I have a stock of new .177 and .22 L/W and BSA match barrels should the stock barrels be less than perfect.

Where is the .25cal model I also hear you all ask? I also have two new .25cal match grade barrels, one BSA and the other Lothar Walther that will I test on this platform for all those modders out there with the burning desire for more energy..

I know there will be plenty of questions  rattling around out there already but please allow me the time to finish this first section before slamming me with them as I will do my best to leave all questions unanswered in the initial review.. I will be open to all questions and suggestions once I complete this initial review and start on the field testing stage.

Stay tuned.. first up.. The un-boxing… second…the strip down and comparisons, is it actually a clone?

« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:19:04 PM by Wingman »

Offline Mintie

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2014, 07:52:23 AM »
Watching this thread with interest!
Lots of airguns

Offline Noonie

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2014, 02:36:38 PM »
'Have you finished it?
Does it come in blue or pink?
Can I have an ice cream?
'It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to the rest of us'

Offline Bob Da Browning

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2014, 01:09:19 PM »
Will be interesting to see the build quality  ;)

Offline SteveH

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2014, 10:02:42 PM »
My excitement dampened at magazine capacity...  ;)
H.A.R.C President 2013-2018

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2014, 12:00:53 AM »
The boxes The P12s were shipped in were unremarkable, just the usual Chinese brown box with the stamped on black writing..
Two rifles were packed in the one box and both had the model and calibre marked on the ends.

Inside the rifles were secured in place with some high density foam, no way they could move but a sharp blow to the top of
the package could go through the two layers of cardboard and cause damage for sure. I would be nice to see a layer of foam on the top as well.

A bag of bits is taped to the inside of the box, but not well enough… the bag can sill rattle around within the box and
contact the stock.. both rifles had small dents in the lower stock caused by the metal parts in the bag..

The rifle comes shipped with an operators manual, some spare O rings, 4 Allen wrenches, a fill probe and a male foster fitting for the probe.. a nice addition for sure! Even the Allen wrenches are of good quality and Im still not sure if shipping a PCP with tools to fix it is a good thing or a bad thing.. The spare O rings are very soft and of low quality.. they would be be better replaced with some nitrile or poly 70 durometer  if you can get them. The probe comes without the  O rings fitted so I fitted some good quality ones from the get go..

There is a small collar on the bottom of the probe that the thicker Oring supplied fits onto sealing it inside the foster fitting. I chose to leave this out and fitted mine with a dowdy washer instead. Just a note, all the gas threads (Probe and gauge) on these guns are 1/8 NPT not 1/8 BSP.. this is the standard for most Chinese made air guns. Both rifles came shipped basically empty, there was about 5 bar in the cylinders just to keep the O rings good.

First Impressions:
The build quality of these rifles is actually really good… well better than I had expected anyway..

The bluing on the steel barrels is perfect and I can not fault it, the machining tolerances and threading etc is great.. the alloy parts have been bead blasted and anodised and I had to look pretty close to spot any machining marks at all! The alloy has a charcoal matte finish that I personally prefer for all types of air rifles.

There is a few very small blemishes in the breech on the .177 which looks like small pits but the .22 is spot on.
The finish on the cylinder is very average and it marks very easily, there is parts at the front of the cylinders on both rifles where the alloy is “grinning” through the black anodizing where it looks worn.. more on this later..

The rifles I received have been fitted with a new Weaver stile rail rather than the 11mm dovetail pictured on the Snow Peak website.. Great!

They are easy enough to cock and push the bolt home with ease! The safety mechanism is in the front of the trigger and operates like a Benjamin Marauders safety, back for safe and forward to fire. Not every one cup of tea! But better than nothing, I suppose a non-loaded rifle is better, load when ready to shoot. is the key!
The triggers were set as a two stage with a little bit of gritty creep then about a 2 lbs break.
Not perfect but I have felt worse for sure..

I filled them both and dry fired them, they are both very loud and would lean toward wearing earmuffs… yup “that loud”.. they have a shocking PING that resonates for about 5 seconds after the shot! Both guns have breach leaks from the bolt probes and the front of the breach where the barrels fit up which Im glad I found before I put my face to the action! I will sort that little issue later too..

The P12 is fitted with an integral forward mounted glow in the dark pressure gauge to keep the shooter informed of all-important residual pressure even on those night hunts..
TIP: don't trust the pressure gauge on the P12 rifle! They are cheap and in both cases inaccurate when compared to several of my dive bottle gauges, the rifle in the pic below has exactly 200 bar in the tank tested on both my dive bottle gauges.. however, it reads 220bar on the guns manometer.

Always fill to the gauge on the dive bottle/pump not the one on the gun.
I will be replacing my cylinder gauges with good quality units in the near future.

What really grabs the eye with these new China dolls is the stock design woodwork fashioned unusually from what I'm pretty sure is is beach wood. I is much lighter in colour than the stock pictured on the Snow Peak website, It is more of a honey tone but the wood grain looks good and has no voids or knots. There is a few darker areas where they needed more sanding before the final finish was applied but it could easily be stained and refinished or repainted to the owners preference.

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2014, 12:03:34 AM »

The P12 spec is familiar by appearance and is fairly conventional for a PCP bullpups layout, being a shrouded barrel over a “slightly larger then most” air cylinder design with forward positioned clamped on scope mounts and the bolt and breech in the aft. Where the P12 scores in my books is with the use of high grade components.
It utilises high grade Aircraft grade alloys throughout which I will speak in more detail about later.

So is it actually a clone as some people have called it? China is certainly known for taking an original item and copying it to exact dimensions and even selling it with the original manufactures name and model numbers on it… sometimes its not so easy to spot a fake as the quality of Chinese manufacturing has certainly increased over the last few years.
Lets define clone to start with, to me a clone rifle (or anything for that matter) is copied to exact or near exact design and dimensions. The Japanese made Sharps Innova air rifle for example, cloned by the Chinese called a Norconia P1 aka Webly Rebel. Another example is the Chinese QB78: A copy of a modded Crosman 160/167.

Most designs however don’t originate in China, most of the copying and ground work is done closer to home and the work is then outsourced to china to take advantage of the cheap labour.
Sometimes drawings/items are sold to Chinese companies for one off lump sum pay outs.. many of these copied designs are also more than 10 years old which voids most patents/copyrights by default.

This is why you see many older looking designs still being made Brand new in some countries.. The Royal Enfield Motorcycle for example originally made in the UK, the factory now resides in India and still builds the bike to the design that is nearly unchanged since the 1940s!

So Back to the question.. Is the P12 a clone of the EDgun R2.5 like some have said?

The stock:   
                  From an antithetical perspective the stock is very different to the Edgun stock.
To me it is more of a copy of the early Russian made Kalibrgun Cricket aka the Hooligun

It also wreaks of the Chinese made semi auto Dragon Bullpup..

Built with an outside influence or not aesthetics do matter, and these stocks certainly look the part..
The stock is fully ambidextrous with a comfortable pistol grip.
Snow Peak removed all unnecessary wood away from the centre of the “thumbhole” stile stock which has made these fully ambidextrous stocks become lean yet still offer a good degree of support and function where it matters. Of course an ambidextrous grip is unlikely to match a dedicated target spec, yet this one still feels reassuring in the aim.
The wood looks to be a poplar or beech and is slightly glossy hard varnished finish. It is attractive and elegant without being too flashy.
The fore grip is quite square like its European counter parts and it is flat on the underside providing a good platform for bench rests/bags or lending itself perfectly for fitting rails, studs, bipods and other accessories…
The only thing I would have liked to see is a little more length to the for grip for more flexibility of hold and IMO it would just look better.. Something more like my Photoshop mod in the second pic:

The soft rubber butt plate is completely flush with the woodwork and extends a little lower to protect the stock from dragging on rough surfaces etc

The stock is removed by two cap screws, one in the front of the trigger guard and another in the of rear stock, the .177cal rifle was missing a serrated lock washer from the rear bolt which cause it to bottom out in the mount.. the bolts were also only finger tight!
The stock fits up real nice and the in-letting is snug with a very acceptable finish.
Whilst I was initially confused by the listed rifle weight at 3.1kg, when the stock was removed I found plenty of lightening rebates..

The all up weight transpires that the super light specs of the materials utilised in its build manages to trim the weight of the whole rifle. The rifle its self is light enough for a junior to use in the field/club.

Aesthetically the action defiantly takes the looks design and function from the early steel breech Edgun R2.5 and R3 but how does it measure up side by side?
Very different, the P12 is shorter over all and much wider, almost as wide as the new R3M multishot Matador in fact. The retaining bots foot print is also wider and slightly longer than the Edguns.

The early Edgun breech consists of two pieces a rear and a forward section which contains the air transfer port and a separate pellet feeding tray/bush, the barrel on the R2.5 butts up against an O ring in the forward section while the R3 was later threaded into the forward breech section.
The China doll has a single piece breech with the air transfer tube in the forward section. The transfer port is made from nylon with one O ring top and bottom similar to a Marauder setup.

The barrel mounts like the old R2.5 or the Cricket, with the barrel held within the 4 bolt clamp system at the centre section of the scope riser mounts, and whilst I would favour a thicker, more rigid, totally floating barrel, the system undeniably works.                   


The pellets feeding tray is all part of the one piece alloy machined receiver.

The Edguns bolt and probe was first made from high carbon steel then eventually stainless steel in the later R3’s. The pellet probe has 2 rubber O rings on the probe to seal the breech.
The P12 has a 316 Stainless steel Chromium-Nickel bolt and is only fitted with one probe O ring, how ever both probes are leaking and need better quality O rings and maybe even a second O ring added.

The bolt handle looks similar to the older steel breech Edguns but not identical.
The short bolt stroke cocks smoothly it and feeds the pellet with a slight resistance as it enters the rifling lands...

The forward scope mounds are of similar design on both rifles in comparison, which clamp around the air cylinder and also the barrel pinching up with cap screws from the side. This is also the same method used by Kalibrguns Cricket bullpup and many other bullpup’s as it is a simple and effective way to mount a scope solidly in the forward position the bullpup rifle requires and also provide a platform for forward trigger group to mount off.

The trigger blade is shaped a lot like the Edgun trigger but the trigger mechanism itself is different. The hammer and valve assembly is also different to anything Ive seen but I would liken them to the Crickets design. I think to be fair on the China doll this review has to change tact a little..

I think most of you will all agree with me that yes there are some similarities between the P12 and several other makers bullpups parts but to be frank, they all look very similar… there is only so many ways you can build a PCP bullpup and they all follow the same basic pattern.

NONE of the P12s parts dimensions match the Edguns as accused, if it was intended to be a clone, it was done badly, probably from a picture not an actual item.
With all that said I be happy to announce that the P12 is not the clone that is has be accused of being.. it is indeed its own design with foreign influences.
From here on this will not be a “comparison review” I will focus on the P12 for what it is.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:34:46 PM by Wingman »

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2014, 12:08:20 AM »
The trigger:

The triggers on these rifles are sufficient. The trigger is a two stage trigger which can be adjusted to how you like it, light/heavy.

 It’s pretty simple to adjust, the first stage travel length can be adjusted buy simply turning the connecting rod in or out.. However it would benefit from a lock nut at the rear to stop it adjusting itself over time..

The sear engagement is adjusted by a grub screw through a small hole in the rear of the rear trigger block.
Both can be adjusted and accessed by simply removing the stock

All the trigger housings and scope riser/barrel clamps are machined out of 7075 T6 Alloy.. a good hard durable aircraft grade material.

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2014, 12:10:04 AM »
Adjusting for velocity:

The velocity is adjusted by a Hammer spring  tensioner that intrudes into the rear of the hammer housing like the Cricket. The more it intrudes the more tension it will put on the hammer spring faster the rifle will shoot. The screw can be adjusted without removing the stock. I will probably put a drop of locktite on these ones though as they are very easy to turn and I don’t want them adjusting themselves under recoil.
The manual says they can be adjusted from 400fps to 1100fps.. and yes I can confirm that depending on pellet choice both the .22 and .177 will do it!

The hammer:

A pretty standard in-line design of hammer with a raised pimple on the front like a Daystate that has been case hardened.. the machining is a little rough on this steel part but its only cosmetic, the outsides where in runs in the bore is smooth and well greased.

The rear section of the cylinder that houses the hammer and attaches to the valve body is also made of 7075 Alloy
and the machining on this part is great! the bore is perfectly smooth.

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2014, 12:11:38 AM »
The Cylinder

Cylinder tubing material v/s yield strength: 

You may notice the P12 has a very large capacity air cylinder, the manual states its 315cc, it achieves this by using larger diameter tubing like the Edgun and Cricket also use.
This brings on an interesting engineering challenge.
Hoop stress (the force trying to split the side of the cylinder open) in the material of a thin wall tube is proportional to the diameter, so all things being equal (such as pressure and wall thickness) the larger tube see’s the higher stress. Just to add, the hoop stress is twice as great as the longitudinal stress (the force trying to tear the ends apart). This means at 400 bar 5800psi the longitudinal stress would only be approximately 200bar (2900psi)

When it comes to making PCP cylinders, the tube with the smallest bore tube will be the strongest; the thrust on the end plugs is less than on a larger cylinder.
A PCP tube could in theory be made even thinner if only the hoop stress were the limiting factor, avoiding rupture in service. But it isn't, and other factors come into play; for example the need for the tube to be rigid and also physically thick enough for the ends to be threaded. Consequently most PCP reservoirs have bigger "factors of safety" than divers' bottles.

For this cylinder to be fit for 200bar working pressure as the manufacture suggests, it needs to have a safety factor of two to three times that pressure before the risk of structural failure. (400-600bar)
Safety Factors like 2 or 3 times std working pressure are common in cylinder constructions and fully acceptable by international safety guidelines.

In nearly all cases of PCP cylinders when filled to the point of catastrophic failure, 99% of the time it will blow out the end plugs unless the tube was degraded or damaged.
Depending on materials used a PCP cylinder in most cases will blow out the end plugs between 8000 and 10,000psi meaning the plugs thread fails at approximately 4000-5000psi of longitudinal stress. The length and depth of the thread also directly corresponds to the fail pressure.

The Edguns end plug retaining system is a far stronger way of building a cylinder with the heads (not the threads) of multiple cap screws in shear..
Without the risk of the threading on the end plugs failing the cylinder walls can be made thinner reducing weight.. Unfortunately this does however increase the risk of a cylinder “splitting” failure instead.. in most cases assuming the muzzle is pointing in a safe direction as it always should be, the front end plug blowing out is less likely of doing bodily harm than a tubular explosion.

As bad as all this sounds the likely hood of it happening is very slim, most pressure testing equipment will even struggle to get 8000psi+ into a cylinder to make it fail.. The real risk comes from damage or corrosion to a cylinder.

Of course, safety is a good thing, but costs and weight is another. If you construct something with a high S/F (lets say 6? 7?) you must construct all the components of the product with the same S/F....otherwise the ''local'' high S/F is pointless. And honestly, I don't think the same tube with just an increased thread engagement for example would endure 20.000 PSI nor will I be trying it..

One thing to be very much aware of with alloy cylinders - no matter how low the stresses are, fatigue will be an issue so the item will have a finite life (determining what that might be may not be simple).  Unlike steel which shows a 'knee' in the S-N curve, alloy does not have a limiting stress below which fatigue will not occur. Now picture an air cylinder expanding under 2900psi introducing stress and sometimes heat every time the rifle is filled and emptied..

Most countries require Scuba bottles to be tested every five years, but PCP air reservoirs are exempt from testing because the air cylinders on guns are somewhat smaller (500cc limit in most countries) compared to hulking great scuba tank! 500cc and below don't have to comply with the testing regs set down in BS EN 1968:2002 and BS EN 1802:2002.

Some air gun manufacturers do put retest dates on the cylinder, such as the the German 10 year testing requirement is just that, a German rule, brought in after corrosion cause a cylinder failure (Anschutz?).
Manufactures who use steel cylinders, like AA, recommend an internal check every few years, but that's only to check for rust, which can weaken the cylinder wall.

Now you all know as much as I do this is where it gets very interesting….

Are you ready for this?

The P12’s air Cylinder is made from Titanium!!! 
The cylinder measures 35mm and has a wall thickness of 3.0mm.

Titanium tube is supplied in several grades and as cold reduced or cold reduced and heat treated to the annealed or stress relieved condition.
This stuff is tough and almost completely impervious to corrosion! The fail pressure on the P12’s cylinder is 80mpa (800bar 11600psi), The working pressure is 20 mpa (200bar 2900psi) but it wont be the titanium tube the fails it will be the threads in the end plugs.
I’m impressed! This Is not at all what I was expecting to find with this low cost PCP.
I would have been more than at ease to find a cylinder made from 6061 or 7075 T6 with thicker walls but I think I have worked out how they managed to accomplish the 315cc air space now.. Well done Snow Peak!
Although my mind was at ease at least on an engineering safety level, I had one of the cylinders professionally hydrostatically tested in a controlled safe environment to 4500Psi (300bar) which is as much as anybody could realistically “accidentally” over fill this rifle to. I did this more to test for O ring or valve failure but it showed no signs of any leak down nor did it show any signs of material stretching on the threads or cylinder walls.. the cylinder returned to the same resting diameter once purged post-test as the pre-test measurements.
I would guess most manufacturers test all their guns to 300bar before they are released.
However, 200 bar is the manufacturers recommended MAX fill pressure so unless you want to be the guy that we all read about DON’T TRY THIS AT HOME!
As this Rifle is not regulated you would only end up with “valve lock” at higher pressures so you would be better off only filling it to 180-190bar to get the best shot curve anyway.

So by doing all the math relating to the materials used and dimensions I was happy to find the P12 has a Safety factor 4 times the working pressure (which I now have had confirmed by the manufacturer) and the weakest point is the threading on the front plug which is made from aircraft grade 7075 alloy (the hardest of the aluminium’s), so as long if you look after your cylinder and don’t fill it past the manufactures recommendations the P12’s Titanium Lung will out last you! 
Now you pessimists can sleep easy again.

Going back to the finish on these cylinders I can now understand why it marks so easily.. Titanium is a very hard alloy to anodize and will give poor results in anything less than the perfect conditions.. I think I can live with a less than perfect finish knowing that the cylinder is tough and safe.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:42:09 PM by Wingman »

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2014, 12:13:11 AM »
The Regulator:

I was disappointed to remove the cylinder from the P12 and discover there is no regulator... not a deal breaker but it would have been nice! Any number of after market regs could easily be fitted and with a small mod to open up the transfer port this thing would have dead flat regulated strings.. I wouldn't touch the transfer port size unless a reg was fitted though as the port size plays an integral part in tight strings when no regulator is fitted.

The valve:

The valve is a very simple unit consisting of a separate body (7075 alloy) that threads directly into the cylinder and houses the poppet valve, a valve return spring and the s/s spring retainer that resembles the Crickets system slightly.

The nylon valve is angled inward which is something I haven't seen before and the valves shank runs in a brass insert.

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2014, 12:14:27 AM »
The shroud:

Like I said earlier this thing is loud! to be honest its not because of the suppressor, sure there's room to improve it but the loud ping, hammer slap and leaking breech makes your ears ring when the P12 is shouldered..
The shroud actually has no baffles in it, it just has a thread on defuser at the muzzle like the one on a Marauder and a conical type air stripper on the front cap.. these are not calibre specific.. the .177 has the same diameter holes as the .22cal.

The thread on the muzzle is a 12mm X 1.25 pitch

The .177 had a lot of lead build up in the shroud part when I un-boxed it and some of the anodizing has been polished out of the rear retaining plug which leads me to believe this rifle has been tested already.. however the .22 was unfired.
I will defiantly be making some baffles for these when the modding starts and possibly rotary porting the rear of the shroud.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:46:04 PM by Wingman »

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2014, 12:15:39 AM »
The and gauge
Like I said cheap, nasty, glow in the dark and inaccurate..
The thread is a straight (non-tapered) 1/8 NPT sealed with an O ring.

The fill probe:

The filling port is easy to access via the end of the cylinder, remove the end cap just by a couple of turns, which reveals the 8mm filling port, like a FX, cricket or Edgun etc its very simple process to fill, with the filling adapter supplied with the rifle. Plug it in and fill slowly.

Behind the front plug is the one way fill valve.. like the Edguns it consist of a small  O ring on a finger tight cap screw with one side ground off:

The P12 fill probe is actually the same diameter of 7.9mm as the Edgun probe but its a different length and the rings/outlet port are in different locations, Im yet to see if either one will work in the opposing rifles.. P12s are the outside probes in pic, Edgun probes are in the centre:

« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:47:20 PM by Wingman »

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2014, 12:16:24 AM »
Two sum up the quality of materials used in the P12 Id say they are up there with the best of them... the cap screws used throughout the entire gun are the hardest available, 12.9 grade.. (although most were very loose)

...with the exception of one.. the little cap screw in the bolt of the .177 that connects with the hammer and drags it back upon cocking was a softer 8.8 grade cap screw.. I can see it has been turned down to take the knurled grooves off the head for smoother operation but the .22 had a std 12.9 with the knurling intact??   :o

One defect I see is within the bolts function, there is no detent ball in the shank of the bolt like on an Edgun bolt, this causes the bolt to rattle around loosely and flip open on its own if the gun is rolled upside down as there is no resistance on it.. Another mod on the list..

The only parts I would say fail to meet the material standards was the action and new weaver rail .. the rail seems to be made out of a commercial grade alloy and can be bent in your hands, unlike a hardened alloy that would just flex and return to the original form it will just say bent. It should be made from 7075 T6 or 6061 T6 to give the strength needed in this area. I strongly suggest you dont mount your scope rings forward of the front riser and it is just too soft and will easily bend if bumped.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:53:22 PM by Wingman »

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2014, 12:17:25 AM »
So now I have established that these China dolls are not actually a clone of anything I thought it was
a bit rough to continue calling this thread “Attack of the clones” ….

 :shock:  :idea: So I thought I better deck these things out with some real Chinese clones!   ;D ;)
Starting with a Chinese cloned Atlas bipod!

...and  a Chinese clone Leupold Mark 4 tactical scope or two

and the Chinese cloned Leupold Mark 4 scope rings..

Now those are real Chinese clones…to the untrained eye its hard to spot the difference from the real thing.. they even have the mordacity to engrave not only “Atlas” but the word “Patented” on the bipod! I guess I have to give them some credit though; they did spell Atlas and Leupold correctly..
The clone scopes are actually not all that bad (if you get a good one), they hold zero, track perfectly and the glass is as clear as any Hawke scope that Ive owned also.
Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with the quality control on either of these items, it just goes to show that the Chinese machine factories are certainly catching up with the rest of the world and there’s no reason why the cant produce a really nice PCP either.

Any Questions? Fire away!
Next up is the "out of the box" testing including a 50 yard test group and shot strings from both rifles.. followed by pellet tests and tuning..
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 11:54:20 PM by Wingman »