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Author Topic: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup  (Read 76781 times)

Offline Possum

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2014, 08:39:01 AM »
Wingy you are doing amazing work here, do you not have a day job!?  ;D
Is it the case that these guns won't realistically be available to us due to the minimum 100 gun requirement?
Cheers
Neil

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2014, 01:39:29 PM »
Thanks possum.. yes I have 3 "day jobs " but this is my night job..  sleeps over rated  ::)

If there is enough demand for these I will work a deal with the factory and import a few.. maybe supply them as a tuners gun with a 'mod it yourself kit' included..

Email or p/m me with expressions of interest..


Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2014, 11:03:57 PM »
I spent a bit more time tweaking the .177. Ive shortened the Reg spacer to 15mm and lifted the reg pressure to 125bar.  The strings got a lot better and it was time for some pellets tests..

Please take note: the following is pellet grouping directly related to THESE P12s and may not represent what any other P12 will do.. All barrels are individuals and you will all have to carry out your own tuning and testing to determine the best pellet to suit YOUR gun.

The following .177 groups were 10 shots each at 40 yards.
I tested plenty of other pellets including Barracuda, Crosman premier 7.9gr, RWS super fields etc but most were outside 3 inchs so I didnt bother to photograph them. The Edgun 10.34gr (JSBs) and the Crosman Premier 10.5gr continue to shoot the best but still.. at 50 yards this should be one ragged hole.
Some  how I manage to delete the CPH group photo so I will take another one some time and edit the post..








Early in the .177 grouping session my suspicions were confirmed as pellets spiralled their way down range..  the barrel on the .177 is a lemon.
I found it to be extremely loose when pushing pellets through it and with the lack of any choke in the muzzle there was just no hope for this tube to produce any groups under an inch at a messily 40 yards..
Under closer inspection with the a scope it got even uglier.. about 8 inches from the muzzle end  there is a bad floor in the rifling groove where it looks like the barrel moved in the clamps while the button rifling was being cut.. I tried to photograph it but was unsuccessful.  The gradual twist in the bore had a section where the groves took on a series of “S” bends, picture some railway tracks after a 7.9 on the Richter scale earth quake! Yup… That bad..



I highly doubt this will be an isolated issue.
So that’s how this is going to play out.. the over all quality of these PCP is not bad, the barrels however I think will be hit and miss. You may be lucky to get a good one like the one in my .22 cal or you could also end up with a barrel that's good for nothing but scrap metal or a handy fire place stocker.

I have communicated this issue with S/P and have asked for a replacement barrel and breach to replace these faulty ones on the .177cal. They have answered all my questions to date apart from this one which still goes un-answered for 2 weeks now.
I don’t know about you guys but if I had someone reviewing my new product as publicly and in depth as I am I would have answered an email like that smartly and had replacement parts on the customers doorstep within days. :butkick:
I sure hope the importers of these rifles are also stocking up on plenty of parts because they are going to need them. My guess is the S/P quality barrel making success rate will be 50/50. I could be wrong and this could be a one off, let’s hope so.

To be honest though, personally I couldn't give a rats ass about warrantees and replacement parts as I have the know how, machinery and a box of premium L/W and BSA match grade barrels at my disposal to sort these issues myself..
For those of you that this does matter to, be sure to ask all the right questions before taking the plunge into a P12.. Does your agent stock spare actions and barrels etc and what sort of warrantee are they offering?
These guns have the potential to be great right out of the box as you have seen with my .22, after replacing all the O rings that is but if your importer is doing his job right he would never let one of these PCPs go out without first testing it and replacing all the rubbish Chinese silicone O rings that leak from new. I must warn you all now.. this shouldn't be taken lightly, it is a safety issue.. make sure your bolt probe and barrel O rings are changed with good quality 70 or 90 durometer Nitrile O rings before you put your face anywhere near the breech and pull the trigger.

I have no doubts what so ever that this rifle will be a tack driver like its big sister with a replacement L/W .177 barrel but the urge to turn this one into a quarter bore is hard to resist..


Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2014, 11:06:12 PM »
Pellet testing on the .22 was really only done out of interest as I dont think I will stray from the EDgun Match 18.13gr 5.54mm head size.. they just shoot amazingly in this P12 as you have all seen..

but to entertain the masses here's a few other pellets shot at 50 yards. the heavy pellets were all shot on the same setting I have tuned for the 18.13gr (900fps) pellets and the lighter ones were backed of to approx 890-900fps also.

JSB 14.3gr Diabollos: shot very well about a 1/2"


H&N FTT: not so flash.. about 1-1/2"


Accupells, about just over 1/2"


Edgun Match 15.89, had one small flyer which opened up a very tight group but these pellets shot very well when the velocity was set up for them..


Beeman Crow mags, not a pellet I ever use but I had a tin so gave them a spin..


H&N Barracuda match, these shot better than I expected but in previous experience they dont shoot well past about 70 yards.


The JSB 25.4gr heavies were a nice surprise.. untill now I have never seen these pellets shoot well out of any gun..


Our domed Korean Eunjin friends printed a lazy 1" group..


H&N Rabbit Magnums.. another heavy pellet but this P12 will only shoot them well to about 30 yards.


I was less than surprised to see these copper coated Barracudas shoot under a 1/2".. this barrel seems to favour pellets with a larger head size.


Something I have noticed with the .22 P12 is the lack of lead fouling building up in the bore.. with the absence of a choke and a bore slightly on the larger side I think the number of pellets it will shoot between bore cleans will be very high..  ;D

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2014, 11:08:38 PM »
I managed to take a photo of the ugly section of rifling in the .177cal:  :o



...so along with this wave like machining the bore is so loose that once a pellet is push far enough into the barrel that the skirt is resized is falls the rest of the way through!
This is a pic of a pellet pushed through the P12 .177 barrel and the one on the right has been pushed through a Lothar Walther match barrel.. Note the rifling impression depths on the heads..



So I decided to drop the Idea of the .25cal barrel and have machined up and fitted a L/W match .177 barrel,



I have highly polished it for blueing but Im in two minds there as the bright polished match barrel looks quite smart as it is!



Testing to follow shortly..

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2014, 11:12:20 PM »
I finished fitting up the new Lothar Walther match barrel, gave the bore a solvent clean to remove the factory rust inhibitor and put about 20 pellets through it to re-sight it..



Ive grown quite fond of the polished barrel look and I thing it matches the polished stainless steel bolt quite nicely..   8)




Keep in mind these groups were shot through a fresh new barrel not even leaded in yet.. all groups were shot at 50 yards and un-regulated.

The first pellets on the paper were the EDgun Match 8.44gr (JSB) as thats what I sighted the rifle for.. These pellets are a match made in PCP heaven  :8:
A big thank you to L/W Germany for providing me with top quality Match grade barrel blanks!



The 10.34gr pellets opened up slightly but were still under 1/2"


I look forward to some starling surgery with these little heat seekers also..


Now theses are my all time favourite .177 pellet. I use them a lot in my .177 Steyr LG110 and they buck the wind better than any other .177 pellet Ive tested.
they are harder than most pellets as they are high in antimony which means more cleaning when you shoot them fast but with groups like this I think I will tune it for these pellets exclusively.  They are also a little longer than all the other .177 pellets so they are easier to handle and load, they dont flip end for end in the feed tray and try to load themselves backwards like a lot of the shorter .177cal pellets do.
So 10.5gr at 950fps gives me 65-70 regulated shots at 21ftlbs of flat shooting fun...



The little brothers at 7.9gr did quite well to but would probably tighten up with a bit less speed..


The FTTs shot very well also.. better than the .22 with these pellets anyway..


The barracudas were the only pellets to group over the half inch, you may also notice I lost count and shot 6 pellets instead of 5    ::)


The Light weight 7.9 JSBs were super fast but the group didn't seem to suffer..


L/W barrels guys... What can I say? Is there any quality pellet they wont group well? 
The .177 is now a joy to shoot and will be loads of fun zapping sparrows and starlings for sure..  ;D

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2014, 07:16:39 PM »
I wrongly assumed that because the .22 bore is looser than the norm that it would like the larger head sized pellets best..
You have all seen what it doest at 50 yards with the 5.54mm head pellets I picked out for it.. but get this!!!



Other than a small change in the point of impact the group sizes were all very similar!
I shot all the head sizes though the high speed scope cam to 100y and get this... not one unstable pellet!!!
I have never seen this before.. There's only one thing I can put this down to.... chalk another point up for the un-chocked barrel..  :shock:

Here's a relaxed group on the side of a water trough at 100 yards with the 5.50mm pellets... an easy inch (regged at 900fps)  ;D



I followed up with a similar group from the .177 with the EDgun Match 8.44gr pellets un-regged at a scorching 1070fps.. I forgot to mention I made the new L/W barrel an inch longer than the factory barrel and with the tighter bore the velocity has gone up..  I would have backed it of If I had of chronyed it first but it didn't seem to effect accuracy.. the pellets were all stable.


Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2014, 07:21:02 PM »
This afternoon Brian (Shooter63) over to try his hand on the new P12..
He arrived sceptical like a lot of you and had a few questions.. I gave him a run down on the un-regged .177cal and set it up on the bench for him to let it speak for itself..

As this thread has gone a little viral globally I should start by introducing him to you, this is Brian, many times over New Zealand Champion F/T shooter in both PCP and springer.. in fact he is a proficient bench rest, clay bird and rim-fire  competitor and there is not many titles he hasn't won.. I have never seen anyone who can shoot of their knee in the sitting position better than this guy can.. those that know him will agree.
He shot a group on the 100 yard water trough off his knee much the same as I did on the bench!




He kept asking me how consistent was it without a reg.. so I insisted by Brian started by with a freshly filled 200bar gun and shot it down to 110 bar on the same target at 40 yards...



Even though he's left handed he remarked on how comfortable the P12 was and it fitted him fine.. After a quick trigger adjustment to his preference he got to work running in my new L/W barrel.. after about 50 shots the POI started to slowly shift to the left so we dragged one dry patch through it, it returned to zero and he continued to shoot it all the way down to 110 bar..  with a total of about 75 shots this showed less than 1/2 an inch of vertical drop over the strings velocity change and of coarse another half inch of drift to the left as the bore leaded in...





After a quick refill Brian was eager to group the Crosman Premier 10.5gr pellets I had raved about in both in this rifle and my Steyr LG110 HP..
So off he went... 20 shots @1000fps later he walks back with this target! That is 20 shots in less than 6mm CTC! he was impressed as I am..



I sat down to have a few shots myself and couldnt see shit though the scope.. I re-adjusted the parallax setting to my eye and still couldn't work out what was wrong :?:
then it dawned on me as I noticed the power adjustment dial was set on 4 power not 10X where I had it set... I was like WTF??? did you just shoot that on 4X Zoom?
he calmly replied.. "yea.. why? I always shoot on 4 power"?    ???

Long story short Brian was extremely impressed by the .177 P12 so much so that he now owns a new Hunter field target rifle...
Enjoy the P12 Brian as I know you competitors wont...  ;)

« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 08:47:13 PM by Wingman »

Offline Ecko

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2014, 12:28:45 PM »
Great stuff!
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Offline shooter63

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2014, 01:40:36 PM »
BULLPUP!     What the hell's that?   Oh yea I know, there those cute lil bulldog puppies we see from time to time!    WRONG......

Until Wingman got obsessed with Bull Pups and especially Ed Guns very few of us knew anything about them, UNTIL NOW.... but like everyone else out there reading about what Wingy has been doing with them and actually doing it yourself one has to remain sceptical until proven otherwise, and believe me when it comes to guns I would be the worst to convince.

Wingy and I are long time friends and I have always held him in high regard because of his knowledge and positive attitude towards anything guns. We simply click in this regard and being the one to introduce him to air guns I feel somewhat guilty for his obsession.  It was one day I went out to his place with my BSA Super Ten Bull Barrel Carbine .177 to have a hoon,a sparrow landed on the trough some 45yds away (ranged) and I said : see that sparrow on the trough down there....watch this a head shot.... he laughed until it fell of the trough with a nice blood stain on the side of it's head. I can't say on here his exact words when he saw it fall  but I think he was impressed and so his obsession with air begun.

When he got these P12 Bull Pups he rang me and told me but gave nothing away as to anything about them before initial testing only to say first appearances were pretty good and that he couldn't wait to shoot them.

I knew he was busy what with moving house and the cafe so I left him to it but was wondering just what was happening and where he was at, then Monday I was on the forum reading his thread and all seemed quite positive with regard to the P12, I have seen this guy shoot some amazing groups at a 100yds and also pull of some great shots at distances not thought possible with an air gun so I knew if what he was saying was gospel it was worth trying it for myself.

I must admit I am pretty critical on any firearm I shoot and if they don't have the wow factor for me I don't consider them to be worthy to be in my collection. I got out there and he said uhmmmm just the man I want to see, how about running this Walther barrel in for me? (he was packing stuff in the shed) so we set the bench up, filled it with air and a revolution was about to begin!

I have to say this as it is so important to me, on picking up the P12 for the very first time I honestly couldn't believe just how nice it fitted me especially being left handed. It just cruised into my shoulder, sat there and let me concentrate on my trigger control, straight away a big bonus.

Onto the bench now and honestly there was no effort at all in controlling this little baby shooting 75 shots (Ed Gun 8.4)into an inch group on a makeshift bench setup and I mentioned to Wingy that I'm sure if I got my custom bench rest stand and bags out the potential for this rifle could be dangerous.

I, like Wingman have always been a fan of slightly heavier pellets at speed so the true test for me was the Crosman Premier 10.5's pellets I have had huge success with before and really know their worth, after 10 shots I couldn't believe what I was seeing...such a tiny hole so a pat on the back for some superb bench rest skills and into the next 10 shots, Wow they just kept going in there and once again effortlessly to produce one of the best 20 shot groups I have seen from a toy gun 6mm CTC at 40yds.

The shot below the group was after switching from the Ed Guns to the Prems, so I made a quick elevation adjustment to move away from that hole and shot the group, man I tell you I was excited and so was Wingman when he saw the target, amazing from a Chinese rifle, new match barrel and not even run in  yet....UNREGULATED!

P.S. I have since mounted my own scope and shot the same 6mm group at 21yds in my back yard...and another one 15mm at 45yds both off the knee!

My final thoughts...........


Why does it shoot so good
Because it just fits and for me being left handed it was always going to be a challenge, but this little beauty just sits there, is an excellent fit, and above all comfortable for either bench rest or positional shooting.

Howz the Trigger
There are heaps better out there but heaps worse as well but this guy is on the better side of good being adjustable and nice to use. (Since fitted a trigger shoe...much better)

The Barrel
As you all know Wingy had to replace the factory barrel that had a serious rifling problem, but as a bonus it was a quality Walther Match barrel and not even run in yet produced an amazing 6mm CTC group at 40yds.

Consistancy
 This was the first time I had seriously shot one of these rifles so I wasn't expecting  a lot as I haven't really called on my bench rest skills for quite some time now, I test everything of the knee. But I can only reiterate just how nice the P12 is to hold and I'm sure either left or right handed shooters will adapt very quickly.   It just keeps grouping!!!

Internals
Because Wingy had stripped and replaced all the seals, polished the trigger and anything required I didn't get to see inside but when he tells me it's ok in there ...I believe him!

The Finish
While the anodising  finish is average a little more thought could of had this rifle looking real trick, probably it's biggest downfall, cosmetic I know but I like them to look good too!

The Stock
While it fits a treat I would of preferred the finish on the Ed Gun but that's easily fixed.

Finally...Would I own one
Hell yea!

When Wingy gave me first option to own this accurate little beast and after some 150 shots over the bench and a 6mm CTC group I SWOOPED ON IT and now this baby is part of my collection and being set up for HFT.


HOPE THIS HELPS ALL THE SCEPTICS OUT THERE, AS THIS IS AN HONEST OPINION OF SOMETHING UNTIL RECENTLY I KNEW NOTHING ABOUT.


SHOOTER
WAGC President
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 05:42:10 PM by shooter63 »

Offline slyrod

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2014, 03:25:03 PM »
Undoubtedly the most enjoyable & best detailed airgun read ever........Bugger HFT competition just went up a zillion notches.

Roll on the Sunday April 20

PS. Phil I had a blast with Allan's new Ed last Sunday...Effortless in all positions to bang on a frypan at 110m+ now understand how you hit 'sky-rats' at insane distances.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 03:30:51 PM by slyrod »
Respect the man with just one gun....he probably knows how to use it!

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Bobcat .22 + Falcon M18 4-18x44
Gamo Compact .177 Target Pistol + Open Sights
Feinwerkbau Sport 124 .177 + Custom build + Leapers SF 8-32x50

Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2014, 06:24:43 PM »

I had a blast with Allan's new Edgun last Sunday...Effortless in all positions to bang on a frypan at 110m+ now understand how you hit 'sky-rats' at insane distances.

Its so easy its almost cheating isn't it  ;)

Offline Pauly5

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2014, 09:28:37 PM »
PS. Phil I had a blast with Allan's new Ed last Sunday...Effortless in all positions to bang on a frypan at 110m+ now understand how you hit 'sky-rats' at insane distances.

I had a shot too. Very nice I liked it. It felt nicely balanced, especially after handling my 97k all day.
You're such a cheat!  ;)
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Offline Wingman

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2014, 11:06:31 PM »
Here's my list sent to SPA of what I think is a MUST for them to fix or modify on the P12 before it goes into production:

*Reduce the machined hole size in the .177cal breech transfer port from 4.5mm to 3mm to stop pellet damage and jams.

*Both the action/breech and Weaver rail need to be machined out of 6061T6 or 7075 T6 not the soft commercial grade alloy used on these prototypes.

*The "cocking pin" cap screws need to be rounded and polished to prevent premature wear and to promote smooth cycling action.

*The Bolt probe needs a second O ring groove added to provide a little more safety.

*The trigger connecting rod needs a locking nut on the rear to lock against the trigger block to prevent self adjustment over time.

*The bolt needs a detent ball added to stop it bolt slopping around in the action.

*All O Rings MUST be replaced with harder good quality Nitrile 70 and 90 durometer and fitted with a good quality 100% silicone grease.

*Address the quality control, Check all cap screws are tight and that there are no air leaks (static and discharging) etc.



The following are my recommendations to bring the quality and value up but not crucial like the above list. The following is my opinion only but I think it will result in more sales and more satisfied customers..

*Check all barrels against defect and test fire with quality pellets before boxing.

*Fit a larger diameter and higher quality manometer (front gauge). The small ones are renowned for being inaccurate.

*Fit a regulator.

*Address the Titanium cylinder coating.

*Address the stock finish, a little more attention to detail and maybe a dark stain would increase appeal. Lengthen the fore grip 50-80mm for ease of use.

*Change the thread on the fill probe to the more universal 1/8"BSP from 1/8"NPT

*Consider a .25cal option, it is very popular in the western market place at present.


SPA replied:


徐总
Dear Wingman,
Thank you so much for your suggestions, it is very useful to us
According all the points you gave me , we already improved, now only the Breech material, right now we are still searching the supplier so we can change it soon.
and your recommendations we also like it very much. We will improve as we can .

Thank you again .
--
best regards!

SPA

Offline 661084

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Re: Attack of the Clones - The all new P12 Bullpup
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2014, 03:44:37 PM »
My p12 designer, I come from China, I will not English, all reply can only use Google translation to complete, hope everybody many of the air gun put forward valuable opinion, I will continue to improve the PCP